View source for CloudServices/Roadmaps/Presence/Meetings/notes 20131014

JR is taking notes at the bottom<br
/><br
/><b>Agenda</b><br
/><br
/><ul><li>round table, who's who</li
><li>overview of Simple Push [jrconlin] see -&gt; <a href="https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ServicesPresence">https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ServicesPresence</a></li
><li>overview of Talkilla, next steps [mark banner]&nbsp;<ul><li>Softphone system where you can connect to another app</li
><li>allows talk, video, etc.</li
><li>kind of like together</li
><li>p2p connections<ul><li>either repeat messages</li
><li>or use server as repeater</li></ul
></li
><li>want to ship for Q4, with Q1 being several K people using.<ul><li>Targeted to making virtual phonecalls with virtual SIMs, etc.</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>overview of Chat Simply [nick chapman]<ul><li>Web based group chat system.&nbsp;<ul><li>based on XMPP features</li
><li>built on lot of tech<ul><li>ejabberd on backend</li
><li>strophe.js for communicating with BOSH (Jack Moffitt jmoffitt@mozilla.com)</li
><li>BOSH for interfacing with XMPP.<ul><li>Semi-custom node.js server for doing iOS push notifications.</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>XMPP has various types of presence<ul><li>send a presence msg as you go online</li
><li>resource has an identifier.<ul><li>Allows multiple connect to a common device.</li></ul
></li
><li>messages delivered as subsription</li
><li>jabber sees who you're subscribed to and what state of subscription<ul><li>connected</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>First message goes to all nodes of a given ID<ul><li>subsequent messages go to specific node of a given message</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>What could browser do to make things easier?<ul><li>User interface features<ul><li>Desktop Notifications</li></ul
></li
><li>Improve the user experience.</li
><li>Lot of work to set up all the bits.</li></ul
></li
><li>Once all set up, it works very well.<ul><li>WebRTC fixes most of the shortcomings...</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>overview of BigBlueButton [tarek]<ul><li>No demo :(</li
><li>Video</li
><li>same goal as application to do video meetings<ul><li>Started in flash</li
><li>previously in webFWD</li></ul
></li
><li>Moving from flash to HTML5 / WebRTC</li
><li>Using SIP for everything.&nbsp;<ul><li>FreeSwitch (does most of the presence stuff)</li
><li>Using js library (<a href="http://sipml5.org)">http://sipml5.org)</a></li></ul
></li
><li>Long term goal is to be based on HTML5<ul><li>Have some pieces that are shared</li></ul
></li
><li>Located in Ottawa<ul><li>Tarek to send email asking for input. (received it -- Fred)</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>overview of TogetherJS&nbsp; if Ian is around<ul><li>One of the constraints is that they want to do this all with standards so accessible from older browsers.</li
><li>Connecting with individuals&nbsp;</li
><li>lots of messaging systems no need to duplicate.</li
><li>creating something that is usable and simple to work with or don't have great APIs.</li></ul
></li
><li>How can we have less work to do with Together?<ul><li>Kinda punted.</li
><li>mostly scrappy work done for the time being.</li
><li><br/></li></ul
></li
><li>overview of SocialAPIs&nbsp; if Shane is around<br/><br
/></li
><li>Presence in the app vs Presence as a service<ul><li>One thing that's different is that after establishing a session, you don't need to do presence exchange.<ul><li>You're connected, pretty present.</li></ul
></li
><li>one idea is to push the social graph down to the user / and isolate the presence info on the server - so we don't break privacy between apps+groups<ul><li>browser/app maintained presence<ul><li>Possibly have an alias that defines a group (for public lookup)</li
><li>later it might be possible to exchange individual contact info for closer relationship.</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>Does it make sence to do something outside of what apps are already doing?</li
><li>Product idea to do messaging app inside of firefox os<ul><li>Folks will want/expect it. need to provide it.</li
><li>what do we need on ffxos?&nbsp;<ul><li>tied to firefox accts.<ul><li>100MM+ users with single signon,&nbsp;<ul><li>Maybe hang presence off of that.</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>Afraid we may build tech nobody wants.</li></ul
></li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>Desktop vs Firefox OS<ul><li>Very fuzzy about what's needed between both platforms.<ul><li>Are we going to build this at the FFOS level or desktop first?</li
><li>(see use case #3)</li
><li>bricks to add to FFOS</li
><li>Are we headed there or will we stay with webapps that are not integrated?<ul><li>Talkilla already being added as an addon</li
><li>What's the end user problem we're trying to solve?</li
><li>what's the value prop?</li
><li>Lots of folks on browsers, not that many with phones.</li
><li>There's nowhere we can't go, but need compelling reason to go there.</li
><li>desktop: from working thing to widely available.&nbsp;</li></ul
></li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>...</li
><li>Next steps to investigate<ul><li>Is there value in having global "presence" service?<ul><li>App can deal with lots of clients, and the central server deal with state of user?</li
><li>Has some way to state a unique id for a user.&nbsp;<ul><li>Is availalbe? how to contact? is app blocked?</li
><li>how to provide user control&nbsp;<ul><li>Server really has to know user state</li
><li>Probably should have some central infromation</li></ul
></li
><li>DNS like service?<ul><li>Can do simple string lookups, salts, etc.</li
><li>masked for privacy scaling</li></ul
></li
><li>XMPP allows federated protocols</li></ul
></li></ul
></li
><li>Do we need to mock code?<ul><li>Not sure, have we defined something new and not provided?</li></ul
></li
><li>What issues are at play?<ul><li>Can we reduce the number of constant connections</li
><li>mobile devices have a hard time dealing with fast connections (TCP issues)<ul><li>May want to use UDP vs. TCP<br/><br
/></li></ul
></li></ul
></li></ul
></li></ul
>Wrap for now: Get input from missing folk.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; See if we can get some more ideas and comments.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/><br
/>Presence designs thoughts:<br
/><ul><li><a href="https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ServicesPresence">https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ServicesPresence</a></li
><li><a href="https://id.etherpad.mozilla.org/presence">https://id.etherpad.mozilla.org/presence</a><br/><br
/><br/><br
/><br/><br
/></li></ul
>===<br
/><b>Some use cases</b><br
/><br
/>Use case #1 - a chat app on Desktop (talkilla v.1)<br
/><br
/>-&gt; See talkilla doc<br
/><br
/>Use case #2 - Big Blue Button<br
/><br
/>Use case #3 - a chat app on Firefox OS<br
/><br
/>Bob starts his phone and log into his <b>account</b>. That sets his presence to&nbsp; "online" via the <b>presence service</b>. The <b>notification service </b>is also started so Bob can be notified. Bob has a <b>contact list</b> on his phone to keep all his friends. A contact is an e-mail.<br
/><br
/>Bob starts <b>the chat app</b>. The app looks into Bob's contact list and uses the <b>presence service</b> to update its UI. It also hooks itself to the <b>notification service </b>to answer on any SIP request.<br
/><br
/>Bob wants to talk with Sarah. Bob starts a chat window . The chat app sends a request to Sarah via the <b>notification system</b> using her e-mail.<br
/><br
/>On Sarah's phone, the event is received, and the chat app is started. Sarah accepts the chat and a session is started.<br
/><br
/>Open questions:<br
/><ul><li>what happens when a user is connected on several devices ?<br/><br
/></li
><li>What protocols exist that we can beg/borrow/steal?<ul><li>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIMPLE">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIMPLE</a> (built on SIP, might be more WebRTC compatible)</li
><li>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; XMPP?</li
><li>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IRC?</li
><li>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Zephyr? Seriously?&nbsp; Is it 1991 in Cambridge?</li
><li>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SIP&nbsp;<br/><br
/></li></ul
></li
><li>What is the least amount of info we need to store or manage?<br/><br
/></li
><li>Should we do end-to-end encryption?<br/><br
/></li
><li>How do we deal with Spam?<br/><br
/><br/><br
/><br/><br
/><br/><br
/></li></ul
>background:<br
/>tarek asked to find all the overlapping projects that seem to want to do presence.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Found various groups<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; INcluding big blue button<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Presence / webrtc&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; chat simply (nick?)<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>Round Table:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tarek - services = interested in RTC and Presence make sure we have most folks involved.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; jr - services&nbsp; =&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; nick - Chat Simply = xmpp project with experience.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rob - project mgmt = Director of user serivces/ sync/ firefox accounts internal customer cloud user<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ian - together.js = collaboration script and pre-existing messaging "How do deal with presence? How do you ensure you're talking to who you think you're talking to?' focused on consumers and what they are doing/wanting. Use cases around how they connect and use. Other use case Anon connect to a developer? are there people in a group? (admin control /privs?) Mentor relationships. Open access and connect.<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ryan - services = made the mistake of suggesting presence is not the same as messaging. Has some experience and research in various existing protocols<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mark - demigod = where do we enable various tech. Talking with various groups and projects&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Talkilla/ tincan / firefox accts. (single sign-on for mozilla projects) Stuff gets complicated then generic then poorly done. Need to understand various audiences and their needs. "Let humans comminicate" is a bit broad, so how can we realistically deal with that? Do we stick presence on FFx Accts?&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
/>(Not at meeting) Mark Banner -&nbsp; Talkilla Development lead. Interested in a wide presence system, but in&nbsp; q4 we need to have at least a basic system in talkilla.<br
/><br
/>Existing Systems:<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SimplePush: ability to talk to wake remote systems<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Big Blue Button:&nbsp;<br
/>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br
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