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Discussion Forums/Request For Comment: Difference between revisions
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== Status Quo == | == Status Quo == | ||
At present, Mozilla IT manages two Mailman v2 instances, | At present, Mozilla IT manages two Mailman (v2) instances, [https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/ the first] is for 'simple' Mailing Lists (various '''@mozilla.org''' addresses) and [https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo the second] for a "Discussion Forum" a Mailing Lists that is transparently synced with a Newsgroups and consequentially Google Groups, and have '''@lists.mozilla.org''' email address. Currently, [http://giganews.com/ GigaNews] hosts [nntp://news.mozilla.org/ nntp://news.mozilla.org/], which is the Newsgroup half of the ''Mailing List + Newsgroup'' combination. | ||
Discussion Forums are the | Discussion Forums are the [https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement primary form of communication] for projects within Mozilla, and are meant to be made available over the widest array of communication protocols: email, newsgroup and the Web via the Google Groups' website. All posts are synced (hopefully) across all other mediums transparently, making for a maximally inclusive set of users. To encourage the largest range of voices, Mozilla wants our discussions to take place in as many useful formats and devices as possible. | ||
== Problems == | == Problems == | ||
=== | === SPAM === | ||
SPAM has been a | SPAM has been a consistent problem in the past and is tricky problem to solve outright. IT is deploying a well-trained Spam Assassin to catching incoming junk mail. SPAM that originates from Google Groups or from GigaNews' side (news.mozilla.org) is outside our direct control at the moment. | ||
* [https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Proposal A proposal to address SPAM from Google Groups] | |||
=== Google Groups Syncing === | === Google Groups Syncing === | ||
For various reasons, Google Groups has had trouble | Discussion Forums are synchronized from email to NNTP newsgroups (the Usenet), hosted at [news://news.mozilla.org/ nntp://news.mozilla.org/]. These newsgroup messages are synced by Google Groups and in turn provide a web interface to post responses that then show up correctly as expected on the email list. For various reasons, Google Groups has [http://blog.gerv.net/2012/07/google-groups-fail/ had trouble reliably syncing posts] from our mozilla.* newsgroups([https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=716007 bug 716007], in particularly new Forums that get created from time to time. This inconsistency causes confusion and fragmentation of the conversation, and ultimately frustration. | ||
=== Newsgroup gateways break threading === | |||
The 2.x mailman we are using clobbers message-id's when gatewaying messages from mailing lists to newsgroups. Because of the naive way in which this is done, this breaks hierarchical threading in mail clients like Thunderbird. See [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=651527 Bug 651527] for more. | |||
This may not be obvious to people using the gmail web client because it only orders messages chronologically and it uses a mixture of content analysis to establish conversation groupings. | |||
(added by asuth) | |||
=== Duplicate messages (from Google Groups) === | |||
It's pretty common as a subscriber of our mailing lists to receive duplicate messages that seem to involve multi-path issues. There may actually be several variations on this, but an obvious one is on dev-webapps where Jason Smith's posts from google groups (I believe that's what User-Agent: G2/1.0 is) show up twice as a mailing list subscriber. This is not a message-id issue; the 'to' on one of the lists is "mozilla-dev-webapps@lists.mozilla.org" (with mozilla-dev-webapps@lists.mozilla.org) and on the other is "mozilla.dev.webapps@googlegroups.com" (with X-Original-To: dev-webapps@lists.mozilla.org). | |||
(added by asuth) | |||
=== Unreliable Web archive creation (Google Groups) === | |||
Google has had trouble creating new groups for new Mozilla lists. We have also had trouble getting the groups created in a timely manner. There are still several Mozilla lists without Web visible archives. (See {{bug|716007}}) We need a more reliable Web archive solution. | |||
=== Unreliable archive - some messages aren't archived (Google Groups) === | |||
As Myk describes [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=716007#c40 here], some messages to a mailing list may not make it to the corresponding Google Group. We need a reliable archive of our discussions. | |||
=== Long Term Future of Google Groups? === | |||
It's unclear (to me) what Google's long-term commitment will be to the Google Groups archives. When first launched it provided a significant advancement (for the time) in making Usenet more broadly accessible, and they made a big push to make it a rich archive (eg Dejanews acquisition, incorporation of backup tapes from the early days of Usenet). | |||
Since then the UI has become stale (though not long ago it got a much-needed refresh), it has a spotty quality record (see other sections in this document, and I've seen issues in non-Mozilla groups too), and the usage of Usenet as a discussion medium has continued to drop. | |||
As we a consider a replacement, if we use a 3rd party service we should consider if and how we are able to extract/mirror content so it can be migrated in the future. | |||
=== Stuck in a Web 0.1 World === | |||
I know, I know. Those kids using HTML in your email need to get off your lawn. | |||
But every participatory environment on the web these days allows some form of rich content. Images, link previews, content formatting, etc. As one example, look at how useful [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12748246/sorting-1-million-8-digit-numbers-in-1mb-of-ram/ StackOverflow answers] can be when answers have visual explanations and nicely formatted code. | |||
The inability to include images makes the current forum options useless for most UI/UX discussions (which is part of why you'll not find much usage from Firefox FE/UI/UX people there). | |||
=== <<insert your own>> === | |||
== Desired Features == | == Desired Features == | ||
| Line 25: | Line 66: | ||
The ability to reliably post from a webpage to a Discussion Forum (as would be expected in a traditional 'Web Forum') is sorely lacking from Mozilla. Google Groups (as mentioned previously) is not always reliable with our forums, and has a distinctly foreign feel. | The ability to reliably post from a webpage to a Discussion Forum (as would be expected in a traditional 'Web Forum') is sorely lacking from Mozilla. Google Groups (as mentioned previously) is not always reliable with our forums, and has a distinctly foreign feel. | ||
Mailman currently can provide read-only archive of messages. | Mailman currently can only provide a read-only archive of messages. | ||
=== Mobile === | === Mobile === | ||
A tablet or mobile-friendly interface, as a growing number of users will be using Firefox for Android, etc. | A tablet or mobile-friendly interface, as a growing number of users will be using Firefox for Android, etc. | ||
[dolske] I would qualify this a bit: A first version should be readable on a mobile device. Given the large overall scope of this project, and the tendency of mobile device usage to be more in the realm of consumption than generation, a polished interface for contributing via mobile would be entirely fair to defer to a followup version. Especially considering that email/google isn't a great experience on mobile today. | |||
=== Improved Moderation tools === | |||
Being able to crowd-source the task of moderation would be a great way to encourage participation and ease the burden of current List Admins. | |||
There must also be explicit moderation tools for list moderators. The inability to block abusive users, redirect disruptive threads, halt flamewars, etc is a major reason why many avoid the existing discussion forums. | |||
=== Make it easier to spin up new mailing lists === | |||
There is often the need to create a mailing list, even short lived, for a project. The "file an IT bug or use google groups" results in just not creating a mailing list. | |||
=== URLs in email from list === | |||
Just as it is very important for mailing lists to have a usable archive, messages from the list should have a link to that archive thread. This is one of the major shortcomings of google groups. | |||
=== Better interopability with other tools === | |||
A hard and open ended one. Mailing lists should work with and extend the existing Mozilla infrastructure in meaningful ways. | |||
=== <<insert your own>> === | |||
== Suggested Improvements == | == Suggested Improvements == | ||
| Line 37: | Line 102: | ||
Mailman v3, has a number of promising advancements that could improve the current state of our Discussion Forums. | Mailman v3, has a number of promising advancements that could improve the current state of our Discussion Forums. | ||
* Multi-domain support. Allows IT to combine the two separate instances of Mailman, potentially. | * Multi-domain support. | ||
** Allows IT to combine the two separate instances of Mailman, potentially. | |||
* Persona (OpenID) Support | * Persona (OpenID) Support | ||
* Web interface (Django), | ** no more shared Admin passwords, no more monthly subscription reminders | ||
* Web interface (Django) for administration | |||
* Improved web API, allows for automation of common tasks (subscribe, create) | |||
* http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Mailman+3.0 | |||
=== Nabble === | |||
* common backend to power 'forum, mailing list, blog, news, photo gallery, document library, knowledge base, FAQ and comment' | |||
* http://www.nabble.com/back-end.html | |||
=== Gmane === | |||
* A stalwart mailing list manager | |||
* http://gmane.org | |||
=== Buddycloud === | |||
* http://buddycloud.com/ | |||
* WebFWD Partner | |||
=== Diaspora === | |||
Open Source 'Social Newsfeed' software exists. Should Mozilla pursue hosting Social Network tools for Mozillians (community members and volunteers, plus Mozilla employees)? | |||
* http://diasporaproject.org/ | |||
=== SaaS Hosted Solutions === | |||
* Jive Social Intranet | |||
** Activity Stream | |||
** Microblogs | |||
** http://www.jivesoftware.com/social-business/solutions/social-intranet/features | |||
http://www. | * Zyncro | ||
** http://www.zyncro.com/en/overview/features | |||
* ThoughtFarmer | |||
** http://www.thoughtfarmer.com/ | |||
* Socialtext | |||
** http://www.socialtext.com/ | |||
* Qontext | |||
** http://www.qontext.com/ | |||
* IdeaPlane | |||
** http://ideaplane.com/ | |||
=== Misc === | |||
* phpBB? This seems to be extremely widely used, and is the first thing I think of in this realm. Dare I say it also has the benefit of familiarity for Mozillazine users. | |||
== Relevant Reading == | == Relevant Reading == | ||
* [[Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement]] | |||
* https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums | * https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums | ||
* https://wiki.mozilla.org/MozCampEU2012/Future_of_Discussion_Forums | * https://wiki.mozilla.org/MozCampEU2012/Future_of_Discussion_Forums | ||