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= IRC Log =
= IRC Log =
Times in MDT
[9:29am] <stormy]]>Meeting (and hopefully great discussion!) starting in 30 minutes! Agenda: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/Meetings/2013-07-16#Agenda
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[9:54am]sheppy left the chat room. (Quit: sheppy)
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[9:58am]lorchard joined the chat room.
[9:58am] <stormy]]>hey, sole
[9:58am] <sole]]>hi stormy
[10:00am] <sheppy]]>Is it just me or is the wiki page for this meeting way way out of date? :)
[10:00am] <jms]]>sheppy: what do you mean?
[10:01am] <sheppy]]>jms: well, for "next meeting" it says June 6, 2012.
[10:01am] <jms]]>which wiki page are you looking at?
[10:01am] <stormy]]>sheppy, wrong one then ...
[10:01am] <sheppy]]>The one linked to in the meeting invite: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/Meetings
[10:01am] <stormy]]>https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/Meetings/2013-07-16#Agenda
[10:01am] <stormy]]>Hmm. I thought I updated the meeting page too but will go fix.
[10:01am] <stormy]]>Good morning, good evening, everyone!
[10:02am] <stormy]]>(And good night to the one person who told me it was something like 4am their time so they wouldn't join.)
[10:02am]sakinagroth1 joined the chat room.
[10:02am] <stormy]]>This is our first developer engagement meeting. The goal is to have a place where we can discuss our developer efforts across Mozilla and coordinate and align on goals and efforts.
[10:02am] <stormy]]>(If anyone can set the topic for this irc channel, it would be good to set it to meeting and agenda. Thanks.)
[10:03am] <stormy]]>Feel to bring up issues, ask questions and contribute info.
[10:03am] <stormy]]>This is an IRC only meeting and for many in the meeting, that's a first! So please be patient with everyone.
[10:03am] <stormy]]>(And if you've attended or run IRC only meetings before, please help us all out!)
[10:04am] <stormy]]>Since this is our first meeting, I think it's important to start with some quick intros. If everyone could introduce themselves with their name, what you work on in the Mozilla project and what time it is for you right now, that'd be great! (And no need to wait in irc, just start typing your intro and send.)
[10:04am] <Markc]]>Mark Coggins, I manage the technical evangelism group at Mozilla
[10:04am] <groovecoder]]>Luke Crouch, MDN site development, 11am CT
[10:04am] <alispivak]]>Ali Spivak, MDN Product Manager, 9:00 am (San Francisco)
[10:05am] <openjck]]>John Karahalis, project manager for MDN, 12:00pm (New York)
[10:05am] <jms]]>Janet Swisher, community manager for developer docs and technical evangelism (10 a.m., Texas)
[10:05am] <jezdez]]>Jannis Leidel, web developer at MDN, 6pm (Berlin)
[10:05am]dbuc joined the chat room.
[10:05am] <jesup]]>Randell Jesup. webrtc tech lead.  12 noon, EDT (near Philadelphia)
[10:05am] <sheppy]]>I'm Eric Shepherd, the developer documention lead. Basically I try to organize the docs community into producing coherent docs about the tech side of Mozilla and the Open Web.
[10:05am] <jms]]>oops, 11 am for me
[10:05am] <sheppy]]>Oh, and it's 12 Noon for me.
[10:05am] <jms]]>but not my brain
[10:05am] <lorchard]]>Les Orchard, MDN dev, 12pm eastern
[10:05am] <pmac]]>Paul McLanahan, www.mozilla.org developer, Noon Eastern
[10:05am] <mreavy]]>Maire Reavy, I am the engineering manager for WebRTC and am involved in several other media (audio/video) projects, it's 12 noon here
[10:05am] <stormy]]>Stormy Peters, Developer Engagement & Websites - enabling others :), 10am (Colorado)
[10:05am]abr joined the chat room.
[10:05am]cmore joined the chat room.
[10:05am] <robnyman]]>Robert Nyman, Technical Evangelist, runs the Hacks blog (Sweden, 6pm)
[10:05am] <sole]]>Soledad Penades, Developer at dev ecosystem, 17h aka tea time ;-)
[10:06am] <pmac]]>(North Carolina)
[10:06am] <dbuc]]>Daniel Buchner, PM 9 PST
[10:06am] <davidwalsh]]>David Walsh, MDN dev, 11am central
[10:06am] <stormy]]>dbuc, when you wrote pm, I thought you were saying 9PM! You might want to tell folks what a PM is.
[10:07am] <sheppy]]>Prime minister.
[10:07am] <pmac]]>Pernicious Monkey, obviously
[10:07am] <dbuc]]>ahem: Provincial Magistrate
[10:07am] <stormy]]>:)
[10:07am] <dbuc]]>aka Product Manager
[10:08am] <dbuc]]>Can is suggest a topic?
[10:08am] <stormy]]>Everybody feel free to jump in at any time.
[10:08am] <dbuc]]>rel canonical is being FUD'd
[10:08am] <stormy]]>dbuc, yes. The agenda is here and people are welcome to add topics at any time: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/Meetings/2013-07-16#Agenda
[10:08am] <stormy]]>What's your topic?
[10:09am] <stormy]]>not sure I understand that ...
[10:09am] <dbuc]]>want to discuss how to solve the multiple URL issue
[10:09am] <dbuc]]>on MDN that people are talking about
[10:09am] <openjck]]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_link_element not sure how it's being FUD'd though
[10:09am] <stormy]]>ok, we'll add to the agenda
[10:09am] <sheppy]]>I don't think that's really a topic for this meeting, dbuc :)
[10:09am] <sheppy]]>I mean, if stormy disagrees, OK, but it seems pretty off into the weeds for this.
[10:09am] <stormy]]>If we don't make it through the agenda, I think that would be a good topic for the MDN meeting and you could bring back an update here.
[10:09am] <stormy]]>First agenda item: news!
[10:10am] <stormy]]>Mark, do you want to tell us about the simulator 4? (Or if there's someone from the simulator team, that would be awesome.)
[10:10am] <Markc]]>Yes, the one item I have to contribute is a hacks post about a new release of the Firefox OS simulator
[10:10am] <Markc]]>You can find the post here: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/07/firefox-os-simulator-4-0-released/
[10:10am] <Markc]]>And you'll see there are a number of new features available in the release
[10:10am] <stormy]]>(Anyone can jump in with questions.)
[10:11am] <stormy]]>Luke, elastic search?
[10:11am] <groovecoder]]>jezdez picked up my slack on implementing ElasticSearch on MDN so we have an updated pull request that we should be able to merge today or tomorrow. https://github.com/mozilla/kuma/pull/1225
[10:11am] <stormy]]>groovecoder, elastic search
[10:11am] <sheppy]]>groovecoder: woot
[10:11am] <groovecoder]]>(note: jezdez did in about 1.5 hours what it was taking me days to do.)
[10:12am] <jezdez]]>eh, the tests aren't passing.. yet :)
[10:12am] <stormy]]>welcome to jezdez - he just joined the MDN team!
[10:12am] <jezdez]]>hello all :D
[10:12am] <sheppy]]>So did chrismills!
[10:12am] <stormy]]>welcome, chrismills!
[10:12am] <stormy]]>jms, MDN & WebMaker?
[10:12am] <sheppy]]>Just realized I don't think anyone let chris know about this meeting; I just pinged him :D
[10:13am]chrismills joined the chat room.
[10:13am] <stormy]]>hi, chrismills!
[10:13am] <jezdez]]>welcome chrismills :)
[10:13am] <jms]]>As you may know, we've been doing MDN doc sprints on a regular basis for a couple of years, now
[10:13am] <chrismills]]>stormy jezdez why hello ;-)
[10:13am] <jms]]>alispivak and I are working with Laura H and Michelle T from WebMaker to develop a new kind of event
[10:13am] <chrismills]]>Sorry for missing some of the meeting; I wasn't aware
[10:14am] <jms]]>that combines an WebMaker techniques with an MDN sprint, more of a learning event
[10:14am] <jms]]>everybody gets to level-up their knowledge
[10:14am] <jms]]>We're planning to prototype this at the OHM festival in the Netherlands at the end of July
[10:14am] <jms]]>https://ohm2013.org/site/
[10:15am] <jms]]>We're also talking about iterating on it at Tech4Africa (http://tech4africa.com/event/tech4africa-the-annual-conference/)
[10:15am]ria joined the chat room.
[10:15am] <jms]]>There are several Moz Reps who are experienced with WebMaker, so that could work out well
[10:15am] <robnyman]]>chrismills: Strike one… ;-)
[10:15am] » jms is done
[10:15am] <stormy]]>jms, do you need any help? Does anyone have questions for jms?
[10:15am] <chrismills]]>sounds pretty exciting, jms
[10:16am]ria left the chat room.
[10:16am] <jms]]>I meant to say, Moz Reps *in Africa*
[10:16am] <stormy]]>I think spanning between WebMaker and MDN is great. There's always been a gap there.
[10:16am]ria joined the chat room.
[10:16am] <chrismills]]>so kind of like docsprints, but with more learning and hacking stuff?
[10:16am] <robnyman]]>jms: Is there any chance to use Reps to do this in India at JSFoo?
[10:16am] <jms]]>chrismills: yes
[10:16am] <lorchard]]>Yeah, I've often thought WebMaker and Demo Studio should hold hands
[10:16am] <jms]]>robnyman: quite possibly, yes
[10:17am] <stormy]]>Any other news that anybody would like to share? About any developer projects?
[10:17am] <chrismills]]>There are loads of learning events in Manchester UK, near me, with teaching/hacking going on.
[10:17am] <jms]]>we can share what comes out of OHM, and they can run with it
[10:17am] <chrismills]]>I can go along and look at how they do things
[10:17am] <chrismills]]>and perhaps offer Moz support?
[10:17am] <alispivak]]>robnyman: this is something I am working on for JSFoo too
[10:18am] <robnyman]]>jms: alispivak Cool, thanks (I wasn't sure exactly what the WebMaker presence there would do)
[10:18am] <stormy]]>I suggest chrismills and robnyman follow up with jms to see if we can leverage ...
[10:18am] <stormy]]>Any other news to share?
[10:18am] <stormy]]>mreavy?
[10:18am] <mreavy]]>yes, webrtc
[10:19am] <chrismills]]>my first bit of documentation work has been to document how to use people.mozilla.com, cos the documentation was like, missing ;-)
[10:19am] <mreavy]]>there was a  webrtc expo a few weeks ago.
[10:19am] <mreavy]]>around the time when Fx 22 went out.  webrtc on desktop is no longer behind a pref
[10:20am] <stormy]]>yeah!
[10:20am] <mreavy]]>we had 2 developers go (jib and tim terriberry) and andreas gave one of the keynotes
[10:20am] <mreavy]]>these expos happen about every 6 months, it'd be great if we could have more a presence at the next one and even more importantly, encourage more webrtc devs to use firefox
[10:21am] <mreavy]]>right now most are using chrome
[10:21am]ckoehler joined the chat room.
[10:21am] <robnyman]]>mreavy: What do you believe is the key factor for developers using Chrome?
[10:21am] <sole]]>robnyman: they were first to implement webrtc (talking from experience here)
[10:21am] <mreavy]]>it's what they are used to for one thing
[10:21am] <jesup]]>Also, DataChannels will let them do a bunch of innovative stuff, and it's just starting to land in Chrome 30
[10:22am] <jesup]]>We have DataChannels now
[10:22am] <sole]]>robnyman: plus there's this perception that "only chrome allows you to play with cool stuff, fast"
[10:22am] <openjck]]>Speaking of WebRTC, we had some /unbelievable/ entries to our getUserMedia Dev Derby (with judging from mreavy and jesup -- thanks again!). Winners will be announced on Hacks on Thursday.
[10:23am] <robnyman]]>What I'm trying to figure out, though, is if it's a) technology or b) perception
[10:23am] <openjck]]>https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/devderby/2013/may?sort=launches
[10:23am] <robnyman]]>Or probably both
[10:23am] <jesup]]>They've been leveraging demos like html5rocks for some time
[10:23am] <robnyman]]>Technically we more or less offer the same things for WebRTC, AFAIK
[10:23am] <robnyman]]>Except for media recording
[10:23am] <robnyman]]>Which is on its way
[10:23am] <jesup]]>They don't have that yet either
[10:23am] <sole]]>robnyman: so they've got the lead, and most of the people use only the webkit prefix, so the demos don't work on Firefox (I'm guilty of this too)
[10:23am] <robnyman]]>Oh, sorry, didn't know it was out there yet
[10:24am] <robnyman]]>So sole when it comes to perception, that's a general thing with Chrome, and part of a bigger challenge
[10:24am] <robnyman]]>Where we need to compete on other terms
[10:24am] <jesup]]>They've been preffed on a bunch longer - we *just* preffed on in release in 22
[10:24am] » sheppy nods.
[10:24am] <robnyman]]>I.e. we don't have the number of people or financial resources to match their efforts
[10:24am] <abr]]>I thought our media (audio-only) recording was going to production about the same time as their media (audio & video) recording was...
[10:24am] <mreavy]]>robnyman: I believe it's more the perception at this point -- and if there is stuff that devs want that firefox doesn't do, that would be a great list to capture and prioritize.
[10:24am] <robnyman]]>So we need to find other ways to stand out
[10:24am] <jesup]]>We definitely have been taking the lead in DataChannels
[10:25am] <robnyman]]>jesup: Right, and Google blogged about the advances with Firefox as well
[10:25am] <sole]]>I'd say we need cool showcases working in Firefox :-) ... and nice hacks blog posts
[10:25am] <jesup]]>Also the devs knowing where a good, reliable, maintained polyfill is given the prefixing and API instability (still being defined)
[10:25am] <robnyman]]>mreavy: Agree that anything that would be in such a list would be tremendously helpful
[10:25am] <mreavy]]>abr: we've landed audio recording.  i've heard that their recording was "being worked on", but I can ask them again if they have an ETA.
[10:26am] <robnyman]]>sole: Yes, I can say that we try hard together on the latter :-)
[10:26am] <jesup]]>They're just starting work on audio+video recording.  Don't know when it'll land
[10:26am] <groovecoder]]>stormy: do/can we know how much more resources Google has behind their developer engagement than we do? I always hear that but never know the details
[10:26am] <sole]]>robnyman: I can volunteer for a post on web audio and the audiomonkey patch polyfill - I used it with success
[10:26am] <stormy]]>groovecoder, last time I looked they had more open positions than we had team members.
[10:26am] <jesup]]>We have a polyfill for chrome-ff interop at webrtc.org used in apprtc
[10:26am] <groovecoder]]>stormy: where do we look to see that? is it worth watching it?
[10:26am]ehugg joined the chat room.
[10:26am] <robnyman]]>sole: Sounds great! As an axtension to https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/07/web-audio-api-comes-to-firefox/?
[10:27am] <stormy]]>ACTION: sole to write a post on web audio and the audiomonkey patch polyfill
[10:27am] <robnyman]]>For showcases, though, would that be the best effort?
[10:27am] <sole]]>yes, sounds good!
[10:27am] <chrismills]]>jesup, robnyman, sole +1 on the polyfill, reliable docs. This is what devs want
[10:27am]cmore left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[10:27am] <stormy]]>How do we continue this discussion on webrtc and come up with more action plan?
[10:27am] <robnyman]]>I mean, demos are great, but we have a long history of costly demos (time, money) that then quickly get discareded
[10:27am] <abr]]>So, I would posit that a big part of the split is that the prefixing requires developers to choose one browser or the other or use a polyfill. And, when looking at the browsers objectively, it's easy to come down on the side of Chrome, simply because it's been available there longer. We might be able to alleviate some of this by publicising the polyfill more aggressively.
[10:27am] <stormy]]>Do some devengagers go to webrtc? Should we add it to the agenda next week?
[10:27am]cmore joined the chat room.
[10:27am] <stormy]]>the agenda for this meeting that is
[10:27am] <jesup]]>abr++
[10:28am] <robnyman]]>abr: Good point!
[10:28am] <chrismills]]>I can help with demo writing/updating
[10:28am] <stormy]]>ACTION: chrismills to help with demo for WebRTC
[10:28am] <robnyman]]>abr: Provocative, but should we consider mapping their prefixes to ours?
[10:28am] <robnyman]]>(I don't believe so, but I'm interested in the duscussion)
[10:28am] <stormy]]>(2 minutes and I'm going to move us to the next agenda item)
[10:28am] <alispivak]]>we also have demos from the Derby we can look at
[10:29am] <alispivak]]>chrismills, you and openjck should chat about that too
[10:29am] <openjck]]>Sure!
[10:29am] <abr]]>robnyman: I flinched involuntarily when you said that, but it's just a gut reaction. It's probably worth thinking through.
[10:29am] <robnyman]]>alispivak: +1
[10:29am] <stormy]]>It sounds like there's a lot of opportunity and momentum around WebRTC.
[10:29am] <robnyman]]>abr: Yeah, me too :-) But it has come up, and good to talk about options and alternative ways for devs
[10:29am] <stormy]]>We will make sure that continues!
[10:30am] <stormy]]>Moving onto cross organizational developer goals (which is related!)
[10:30am] <chrismills]]>alispivak, openjck yup, sounds good
[10:30am] <stormy]]>Given the Mozilla mission, how do we make sure we are successful with how it relates to developers?
[10:30am] <stormy]]>What would we look at to say "Mozilla's mission succeeded with developers!"?
[10:30am] <stormy]]>Which projects? What metrics? Thoughts?
[10:31am] <groovecoder]]>"Our mission is to promote openness, innovation & opportunity on the Web."
[10:31am] <groovecoder]]>:)
[10:31am] <robnyman]]>I would say one measurement is that web sites/apps don't work in just one web browser
[10:31am] <sole]]>robnyman: +1
[10:31am]Markc left the chat room. (Ping timeout)
[10:31am] <groovecoder]]>robnyman, sole: that's probably in the "openness" bucket?
[10:32am]Markc joined the chat room.
[10:32am] <stormy]]>Or alternatively my question could be phrased that developers are able to help with Mozilla's mission.
[10:32am] <jesup]]>abr robnyman: if we map theirs to ours, we MUST support at least a compatible subset of their features.  It may also break existing polyfills....  The prefixes are less about "who implements" than they are about "what is implemented/API"
[10:32am] <stormy]]>We have a number of products that support Mozilla's mission. Which ones (or what aspects of them) are important for developers?
[10:32am] <dbuc]]>Best chance is to solve problem issues for devs, like offline, data sync, caching, IndexedDB, etc
[10:33am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc++
[10:33am] <ehugg]]>The differences between Chrome and FF are more than just prefixes, for example - http://apprtc.appspot.com/js/adapter.js
[10:33am] <alispivak]]>I'd like to create goals and success metrics around community & have tools to measure them
[10:33am] <alispivak]]>community participation/contribution, that is
[10:33am] <robnyman]]>jesup: One option could be to make an agreement with Google and have a prefix that isn't web browser specific, but rather experimental in general
[10:33am] <chrismills]]>I think the community of developers that contribute to docs and demos is a big factor - having been around the block a lot in the web space, I've never seen another community quite like it
[10:33am] <dbuc]]>Also, we need to get pitbull-aggressive with pushing phone-centric standards with other vendors
[10:33am] <stormy]]>For example, Persona is important for an open web that respects people's privacy.
[10:33am] <groovecoder]]>robnyman, jesup, abr: can we move the prefix thread somewhere else? :)
[10:33am] <robnyman]]>ehugg: Good point
[10:33am] <groovecoder]]>ehugg: ^
[10:34am] <dbuc]]>until a few big ones land, we can call them emerging standards all we want, but devs aren't fooled
[10:34am] <stormy]]>And the Persona team has a goal to get x number of website using persona.
[10:34am] <stormy]]>Would the developer perspective on that be the same?
[10:34am] <stormy]]>Or would we want sites key to developers to be targetted? Or better tools? Or docs?
[10:34am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc: is phone features lumped under "WebAPI" ?
[10:34am] <dbuc]]>the need to see the reality of cross compatible device APIs, it will be a forcing function for platform adoption
[10:34am] <dbuc]]>groovecoder: yeah, lots are
[10:35am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc: do we consider WebAPI a product? does it have a team?
[10:35am] <dbuc]]>Tools is huge too stormy
[10:35am] <chrismills]]>so cross compatible open web apps...
[10:35am] <jesup]]>prefixes -> #media
[10:35am] <dbuc]]>groovecoder: we're trying to get a person to do PM for platform
[10:35am] <dbuc]]>basically work to listen to devs and push the right APIs
[10:35am] <dbuc]]>that solve their issues and enable the most app use-cases
[10:35am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc: sounds like that person should be involved in setting devengage goals
[10:35am] <dbuc]]>surely
[10:36am] <groovecoder]]>stormy: ^ WebAPI/Platform should be involved
[10:36am] <dbuc]]>the person would do what I did with Web Components, and what Martin Best did with ASM
[10:36am] <stormy]]>So getting more specific about measuring success, a year from now, how will we know if Mozilla has successfully engaged web developers to help in our mission?
[10:36am] <stormy]]>How will the world be measurable different? Either the world in general or the impact that our projects have had.
[10:36am] <dbuc]]>see the issues, identify oppertunities/solutions, write plans, and execute with a contingent of vendors at the same time
[10:37am] <dbuc]]>stormy: we have apps that work across web platform envs
[10:37am] <dbuc]]>and I mean apps that have real meat, with advanced APIs
[10:38am] <dbuc]]>in terms of value prop, that is the single greatest one for devs
[10:38am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc: measurable? or binary? i.e., 1 other platform implements WebSMS ?
[10:38am] <dbuc]]>I'd pair that with X apps using the API after it has been in 2 or more browsers for 2 quarters
[10:38am] <dbuc]]>something like that
[10:38am] <alispivak]]>success - active participants in the developer program, MDN community. I think we need a session at the offsite (jumping ahead on the agenda) to define key metrics (e.g. what does active mean as far as contribution) and how to measure
[10:38am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc: I like that
[10:39am] » stormy thinks there are lots of quiet people that probably have input ...
[10:39am]sakinagroth1 left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving.)
[10:39am] <dbuc]]>type now, or forever hold your peace
[10:40am] <robnyman]]>dbuc: I agree on having, for instance, WebAPIs/features supported across many platforms/vendors
[10:40am] <jms]]>+1 what alispivak said
[10:40am] <stormy]]>something that's mentioned a lot is how many developers use Firefox and Firefox tools
[10:40am] <robnyman]]>dbuc: Question is, is that developer outreach? Or business partnerships? Or engineering overlaps?
[10:40am] <sheppy]]>I personally feel that we know we're engaging well with developers if we're getting active feedback on our content, from demos to blogs to tweets to documentation.
[10:40am] <chrismills]]>getting other vendors interesting in implementing the standards for open web apps would be a huge metric, but slow to implement
[10:40am] <sheppy]]>Feedback and/or participation.
[10:40am] <dbuc]]>robnyman: those are all a factor
[10:40am] <stormy]]>So for these goals, I'm less interested in who will do the work.
[10:40am] <sheppy]]>chrismills++
[10:41am] <jms]]>but also metrics around adoption, per dbuc
[10:41am] <stormy]]>And more interested in how we measure whether we are successful with developers.
[10:41am] <chrismills]]>contributions by devs to MDN docs smaller and quicker
[10:41am] <stormy]]>Like a dashboard we could look at.
[10:41am] <stormy]]>Then we engage whatever teams we need to solve whatever problems we have.
[10:41am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc, robnyman: the devengage factor is probably the "X apps use ____ API"
[10:41am] <dbuc]]>it will take: 1) identifying the right APIs 2) getting them cross-platform/cross-vendor 3) working with partners to implement cross-vendor apps using them
[10:41am] <dbuc]]>yes
[10:41am] <openjck]]>I would be interested in how many conference slide decks recommend MDN or other Mozilla developer-facing properties -- somehow measuring and improving that number.
[10:42am] <dbuc]]>biz dev needs to beat the drum and say: "hey partners, Web SMS is now open for business on Firefox and Chrome!"
[10:42am] <stormy]]>openjck, it might be easier to measure blog posts. Do you think conference slide decks would be more relevant or different?
[10:42am] <robnyman]]>dbuc: groovecoder Yes,that's one part, But I also believe another is collecting info on which APIs developers actually want.
[10:42am] <chrismills]]>openjck: in my experience, MDN is just a given. It is so obvious it is rarely mentioned. Especially amongst JS developers
[10:42am] <dbuc]]>robnyman: yes, that is a function of the platform PM(s)
[10:43am] <stormy]]>(3 more minutes and then the next agenda item)
[10:43am] <dbuc]]>they are the ear to the ground, the need-analyzers, the use-case sorters
[10:43am] <jms]]>seems like blog posts are more likely to actually link to MDN than slide decks
[10:43am] <alispivak]]>mention and links to developer content from outside sources could be a measurement...
[10:43am] <stormy]]>mreavy, jesup, how will we know when WebRTC is successful with developers?
[10:43am] <dbuc]]>alispivak: yep, and visibility
[10:43am] <groovecoder]]>robnyman, dbuc: good point. so one devengage goal is to help platform PM's discover which WebAPI's to push, and another devengage goal is to then promote developers to implement them in their web apps
[10:43am] <openjck]]>stormy: Yeah, should be easier to measure and just as useful. I mention conference slide decks just because it is the first example that comes to mind. Whenever I see someone notable recommending MDN, I am reminded of how important our work is. And I suspect listeners and/or readers feel the same way.
[10:43am] <dbuc]]>if we could measure actual awareness increases
[10:44am] <dbuc]]>that would be prime
[10:44am] <groovecoder]]>alispivak++
[10:44am] <stormy]]>alispivak, mention and links to our content? so inbound links?
[10:44am] <dbuc]]>not only who links, but who becomes aware, sound the same, but very different
[10:44am] <groovecoder]]>alispivak, jms, dbuc: measuring referral visitor traffic should be an easy way to measure back-links, right?
[10:45am] <chrismills]]>groovecoder: yup, should be
[10:45am] <jesup]]>Webrtc, or Mozilla's webrtc?  I think follow the startups and web pages and games using the feature, and whether interest continues.  Right now it's hot (given multiple conferences based solely around this still-early feature, and hundred-plus startups)
[10:45am] <robnyman]]>groovecoder: Yep. Although we need to careful with which APIs we push (i.e. they need to be useful for many people, not for our needs at Mozilla)
[10:45am] <dbuc]]>sure, but can we go a step further and measure mind-share increase?
[10:45am] <alispivak]]>stormy:  yes. I'll take an action item on worknig with the team to figure out awareness and linking
[10:45am] <alispivak]]>metrics
[10:45am]sakinagroth1 joined the chat room.
[10:45am] <dbuc]]>who did that link-back reach? what did that viewer percieve as value?
[10:45am] <stormy]]>jesup, it is one of our challenges. Measuring the success of what we want to promote (webrtc) and measuring the success of our efforts (our webrtc) so we know what to do more of.
[10:46am] <stormy]]>ACTION: alispivak to discuss with smaller group and propose some MDN/linking/backtrackign type metrics
[10:46am] <chrismills]]>we can also measure time visitors spent on those pages too, so did they spend an appreciable amount of time using the pages, and not just leave straight away?
[10:46am]fharper joined the chat room.
[10:46am] <stormy]]>ok, moving on to our next agenda item
[10:46am] <jesup]]>For measuring success with mozilla, look at how many of these actively developed products work with Mozilla
[10:46am] <dbuc]]>chrismills: we could put actionable feedback items in the page
[10:47am] <dbuc]]>note: I do not mean surveys, etc
[10:47am] <chrismills]]>dbuc: +1
[10:47am] <stormy]]>Part of the goals discussion, what teams/products should be represented here ...
[10:47am] <stormy]]>I"ll add that to the beginning of next week too.
[10:47am] <dbuc]]>I mean things that are part of the content that tell us, with reasonable confidence, that they had a deep interaction
[10:47am] <dbuc]]>for instance
[10:47am] <stormy]]>Next couple of agenda items are informational and are open for questions/discussion.
[10:47am] <dbuc]]>viewing a demo is great
[10:48am] <stormy]]>First, we have a bunch of developer facing roles open!
[10:48am] <dbuc]]>but if I tweak a jsFiddle and make it my own, that is the next level
[10:48am] <stormy]]>Please take a look at the jobs and refer people you know that would be good fits.
[10:48am] <stormy]]>We have developer program manager, project manager, product marketing manager, product manager ....
[10:48am] <chrismills]]>dbuc I agree entirely - also allow them to link back a demo/resource?
[10:48am] <stormy]]>In spite of all the "managers" in the title - these roles do lots of real work! :)
[10:49am] <stormy]]>And are all very technical.
[10:49am] <stormy]]>Any questions on them?
[10:49am] <jms]]>groovecoder, sheppy: re dbuc's idea, could we instrument the live sample code to measure when someone uses one?
[10:49am] <mreavy]]>regarding: measuring webrtc success --- right now, there are too many webrtc sites that are chrome-specific (as jesup mentioned).  that is a good place to start.  there are several major sites that are reaching out to us. we want to make time to work with them and with them we can figure out a way to measure chrome vs firefox usage and work towards driving firefox usage up.
[10:49am] <stormy]]>IRC meeting help needed, do I give more time for the discussion? Or do I push people along to the next topic?
[10:50am] <alispivak]]>stormy: I'd get someone to volunteer to lead a meeting on the topic, then move on
[10:50am] <stormy]]>thanks, alispivak!
[10:50am] <alispivak]]>I will volunteer, actually.
[10:51am] <stormy]]>thanks, alispivak
[10:51am] <Markc]]>Goals will be a core part of the offsite, of course
[10:51am] <stormy]]>ACTION: alispivak to schedule follow up discussion for [summarize dbuc/jms/... thread]
[10:51am] <alispivak]]>stormy: also turn it into agenda items/breakout for the offsite
[10:51am] <stormy]]>Markc, yes, although I'd like to have some organizational wide developer goals before then
[10:51am] <stormy]]>thanks, alispivak
[10:52am] <stormy]]>MDN redesign, Ali?
[10:52am] <chrismills]]>would it be worth contacting the creators of such webkit-only WebRTC sites/demos and helping them make their sites work across browsers?
[10:52am] <chrismills]]>could be a lot of work
[10:52am] <Markc]]>stormy: sure thing, but they should be draft of course
[10:52am] <alispivak]]>MDN Redesign - there is a link to the wiki page for the redesign in the agenda
[10:52am] <chrismills]]>kind of like the old web opener work we used to do at Opera
[10:52am] <stormy]]>chrismills, yes, I think the WebRTC team would love any help with that
[10:52am] <jms]]>chrismills: We also need to do that for Web Audio
[10:52am] <jms]]>Need to develop a process for it
[10:52am] <chrismills]]>I'll talk to them, give them an idea of the sort of process we used to use at Opera
[10:53am] <chrismills]]>anyhow, I'll shush now ;-)
[10:53am] <stormy]]>chrismills, it would be great if you could also talk to lmandel. He's been doing similar work for mobile websites and FxOS and Firefox for Android
[10:53am] <jesup]]>chrismills: given the polyfills, it may not be that hard (I hope) unless they depend on stuff chrome implemented and we haven't yet
[10:53am] <stormy]]>alispivak, the goal of the MDN redesign is ...
[10:53am] <alispivak]]>quick news on the redesign - there is an email thread in process about the schedule for the design work - I guess the creative team forgot to account  for Sean Martell's PTO, so there is likely going to be an impact
[10:53am] <jms]]>chrismills: and karlcow is now on lmandel's team
[10:53am] <dbuc]]>another thought: work directly with goodle on a demo program that hightlights cross-vendor examples that work at 100% parity
[10:53am] <dbuc]]>and MS too, if Tony Ross is feeling frisky
[10:54am] <alispivak]]>I'll have more news later today after i talk to them and wok with groovecoder on the schedule
[10:54am] <stormy]]>mreavy, can you schedule a follow up with the folks that have expressed interest in helping with WebRTC?
[10:54am] <mreavy]]>chrismills: that would be great.  thanks for the help!
[10:54am] <stormy]]>alispivak, can you explain in 1-2 sentences why we are doing the redesign? (To unite various developre facing sites)
[10:55am] <alispivak]]>stormy: sure!
[10:55am] <mreavy]]>stormy: yes, i can.  so that i don't miss anyone, if anyone interested could shoot me a quick email (one liner, for example: "I'm interested in helping with WebRTC"), that would be very helpful
[10:55am] <karlcow]]>jms: chrismills is not lmandel's team but hallvord is :)
[10:55am] <dbuc]]>stormy: we are gathering disperate dev content and sites under one dev umbrella
[10:56am] <stormy]]>awesome
[10:56am] <dbuc]]>so all our info is easy to message, and the source is intuitively known
[10:56am] <stormy]]>I'm going to push through the last agenda items rather quickly.
[10:56am] <stormy]]>3 left.
[10:56am] <stormy]]>Markc, events?
[10:56am] <mreavy]]>(i realize there may be people here who are interested in webrtc but haven't "spoken")
[10:56am] <dbuc]]>the lightening round!
[10:56am] <Markc]]>Yes, the main thing to know is we track all the events mozilla participates in here:
[10:56am] <Markc]]>https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/events
[10:56am] <alispivak]]>MDN is being redesigned/rebranded to provide a single visual identity & brand for developers. Part of that is pulling together developer-facing websites and programs under a revamped Mozilla Developer Network
[10:56am] <stormy]]>super-lightning round!
[10:56am] <dbuc]]>I'll take "Pimping the Web" for $1000 Alex
[10:57am] <chrismills]]>dbuc - I will be working on further improving the IA of MDN and associated resources.
[10:57am] <Markc]]>You can see the ones that are coming up and, if you are going to one that isn't listed, please let Robyn Chau know
[10:57am] <stormy]]>thanks, Markc
[10:57am] <stormy]]>Offsite agenda and goals
[10:57am] <stormy]]>We will add this towards the beginning of next weeks' meeting.
[10:57am] <stormy]]>In the meantime you can capture any things you would like to make sure are covered on this wiki page:
[10:57am] <stormy]]>https://wiki.mozilla.org/Engagement/Developer_Engagement/2013-08-offsite/agenda
[10:57am] <stormy]]>(I have more info to populate it and will do when not running an irc meeting. :)
[10:58am] » groovecoder beams at seeing 200 OK on that list
[10:58am] <stormy]]>Last agenda item, dbuc asked to add the url/cookie crumbs agenda item
[10:58am] <Markc]]>groovecoder: of course!
[10:58am] <stormy]]>I do see this meeting as a place to call out where issues are getting stuck collaborating across Mozilla.
[10:59am] <stormy]]>dbuc, do you think there's a meeting or way that can get unstuck? Or how can we help the group come to a decision?
[10:59am] <stormy]]>While dbuc thinks …
[10:59am] <stormy]]>Any last agenda items?
[10:59am] <stormy]]>I welcome any feedback on the meeting format as well!
[10:59am] <stormy]]>Format or content.
[10:59am] <dbuc]]>huh?
[11:00am] <dbuc]]>sorry reading
[11:00am] <dbuc]]>ahh
[11:00am] <dbuc]]>I responded!
[11:00am] <dbuc]]>here
[11:00am] <dbuc]]>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.mdn.drivers/PRXZo2gc4PA
[11:00am] <stormy]]>Anything you need from this group?
[11:00am] <stormy]]>Or is it being resolved in the MDN drivers list?
[11:00am] <dbuc]]>I want people to read that, and Stop the Madness™ :)
[11:00am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc: lulz
[11:01am] <stormy]]>I think more people reading sometimes creates more madness!
[11:01am] <dbuc]]>yeah, just want to make sure people read it, that's all
[11:01am] <stormy]]>But info is good. :)
[11:01am] <groovecoder]]>dbuc, stormy: that's a pretty low-level discussion though.
[11:01am] <stormy]]>and awareness
[11:01am] <dbuc]]>trye
[11:01am] <dbuc]]>true
[11:01am] <stormy]]>Ok, closing up the meeting!
[11:01am] <stormy]]>Thanks everyone for attending!
[11:01am] <dbuc]]>later
[11:01am] <stormy]]>And trying out our "new" meeting format of IRC only.
[11:01am]dbuc left the chat room.
[11:01am] <Markc]]>Thanks!
[11:01am] <robnyman]]>Have a good morning/day/evening/night!
[11:01am] <stormy]]>As I said, I welcome any feedback on content or format.
[11:01am] <stormy]]>Good morning/afternoon/evening/night!
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[11:02am] <groovecoder]]>bye all. I'm always in this channel, so "I won't actually be going anywhere, but you don't have to talk to me anymore." -Futurama
[11:02am] <chrismills]]>ta ra for now
[11:03am] <sole]]>robnyman: I'll get in touch with you for the article then
[11:04am] <stormy]]>Ah, I will post the IRC log of the meeting to the wiki and also parse through for notes and action items!
[11:04am] <robnyman]]>sole: Please do! robert@mozilla.com You know, the non-profit…
[11:04am] <sole]]>robnyman: phonebook will tell me anything I ask
[11:05am] <robnyman]]>:-)
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